Fresh Air · Podcast summary
The Roy Cohn Playbook, from McCarthyism to Trump
Kai Bird, author of "American Scoundrel," discusses the life and legacy of Roy Cohn, exploring his influence on Donald Trump and the enduring impact of his unethical tactics on American politics and democracy.
Listen on the show ↗Key takeaways
- 📜Roy Cohn's rules, which later became known as "Trump's rules," were to never admit you're wrong, deny, deny, deny, and delay, delay, delay when facing charges.00:40
- 🎭Despite being a closeted gay man, Cohn actively prosecuted and smeared alleged communists and gay people during the McCarthy era, ruining many lives.01:41
- ⚖️Cohn was a master of legal manipulation, even using a lawyer's heart attack in court to his advantage by delivering his own lengthy summation.03:31
- 💸Cohn's shamelessness extended to leaving unpaid debts across Manhattan, often delaying payment until creditors gave up or settled for pennies on the dollar.04:23
- 🤝Donald Trump adopted Cohn's tactics, including not paying bills, using delay as a negotiating tactic, and finding tax shelters to pay very little.05:03
- 👨⚖️Cohn's rule, "Don't tell me the law, tell me the judge," influenced Trump's strategy of appointing favorable judges and even having his personal lawyer lead the Justice Department.05:32
Chapters
- 0:14Introduction to Roy Cohn and His Influence
- 0:39Roy Cohn's Rules and Tactics
- 0:59Cohn's Legal Career and Controversies
- 2:02Cohn's Hypocrisy as a Gay Man
- 2:06Cohn's Political Connections and Indictments
- 3:20The Importance of Cohn's Story for American Democracy
- 3:33Cohn's Rules: Deny, Delay, Attack
- 6:49Cohn's Shamelessness and Unpaid Debts
- 8:11Trump's Adoption of Cohn's Tactics
- 8:52Cohn's Manipulation of the Judiciary
- 15:33Cohn's Role in McCarthyism
- 21:47Cohn's Brutal Interrogation Techniques
- 22:27Cohn's Closet and Hypocrisy
- 26:45Trump's Awareness of Cohn's Homosexuality
- 28:44The Connection Between Cohn and Trump's Politics
- 30:47Cohn's Legacy and the Fragility of Democracy
- 37:24Cohn's Post-McCarthy Career
- 38:13Cohn's Representation of Mafia Figures
- 40:05The Evolution of Trump and Cohn's Relationship
- 41:28Cohn's Role in Trump's Rise to Fame
- 43:30Trump's Reaction to Cohn's AIDS Diagnosis
- 47:00The Challenges of Researching Cohn's Life
- 50:22The Mapplethorpe Photo Controversy
- 56:43Cohn's Hypocrisy and Public Outing Attempts
- 1:01:58The Enduring Lesson of Roy Cohn
The digest
Terry Gross interviews Kai Bird, author of "American Scoundrel," a new biography of Roy Cohn. Bird reveals how Cohn's infamous tactics, developed during the McCarthy era, became a playbook for Donald Trump, shaping his political career and contributing to the fragile character of American democracy.
Roy Cohn's Rules: Deny, Delay, Attack
Kai Bird explains that Roy Cohn's rules, which later became known as "Trump's rules," were simple: never admit you're wrong, deny, deny, deny, and when there are charges against you, delay, delay, delay. Cohn followed these rules throughout his life, becoming a routine rule-breaker. He would delay courtroom proceedings as often as possible, deny all allegations, and even attack judges by name. Bird recounts an instance where Cohn's own lawyer suffered a heart attack in court, and Cohn, seizing the opportunity, stepped forward to deliver his own summation, turning the situation to his advantage. Cohn was allowed to speak for seven hours over two days, effectively defending himself and even moving some jurors to tears, leading to a 12-0 acquittal.
Keep reading in The Digest
The full 4-minute article, 5 more sections, and every new episode from Fresh Air and the creators you follow.
- Shamelessness and Unpaid Debts
- Trump's Adoption of Cohn's Tactics
- Cohn's Hypocrisy and Trump's Embrace of His Image
- The Making of a National Figure: The Art of the Deal
- The Enduring Legacy of McCarthyism
More from Fresh Air
Best Of: Kyle MacLachlan / Inside the ‘romance scam’
Kyle MacLachlan reflects on his career shaped by David Lynch, while Wired's Andy Greenberg exposes a human trafficking romance scam fueled by AI.
Kyle MacLachlan was David Lynch’s ‘submersible’ into dark places
Kyle MacLachlan reflects on his transformative collaboration with David Lynch, his journey through iconic roles, and the personal challenges behind the scenes.
Best Of: Rhiannon Giddens / Investigating Diddy’s Rise & Fall
Rhiannon Giddens explores Black string band traditions and her role in Beyoncé's country album; Cheyenne Roundtree investigates Sean Combs' complex legacy in music and scandal.
Rhiannon Giddens traces the banjo from her ancestors to Beyoncé
Rhiannon Giddens, the Grammy-winning musician and co-founder of the Carolina Chocolate Drops, discusses her new album "Hope is the Thing with Feathers," her role on Beyoncé's "Cowboy Carter," and the deep historical roots of the banjo, tracing its origins from African traditions to its presence in various American musical forms.
Best Of: Colin Kaepernick / Danielle Brooks
Colin Kaepernick discusses his memoir, "The Perilous Fight," and the reasons behind his kneeling protest. Danielle Brooks shares her experiences playing complex Black female characters and her journey through musical theater.
Looney Tunes animator Chuck Jones / Remembering singer Cassandra Wilson
Film critic Justin Chang reviews "Hope," a South Korean monster movie, and jazz critic Kevin Whitehead remembers singer Cassandra Wilson.